Jump to navigation. Posted by Don Keyes on September 03, at Do you know if ice core dating is accurate. I heard that Antarctica had ice rings like tree rings that go back 50, years undisturbed by a flood. If it is challenged do you know on what basis.
Variant core dating well
Wiggle matching is also problematic because seafloor sediment chemical wiggles are often obtained from the shells of free-floating organisms called planktonic foraminifera forams.
When these creatures die, their shells become part of the sediments accumulating on the ocean floor. The oxygen isotope values from these shells depend upon both the temperature and chemistry of the surrounding water at the time the shell was formed.
Of course, there is no way to know these quantities, and secular scientists must make assumptions about the past in order to fill in the details. Likewise, ocean temperatures can vary dramatically due to differences in depth-remember, these particular forams float freely in the oceans-and local temperature changes may be totally unrelated to changes in worldwide climate. Therefore, it is very risky to tie chemical wiggles from one core to another core thousands of miles away, especially if the wiggles were obtained from the shells of planktonic forams.
Therefore, no Bible-believing Christian should be intimidated by the long ages assigned to the deep seafloor sediment and ice cores or by the apparent agreement between those assigned ages. Secular scientists simply assume evolution and an old earth and use those assumptions to ensure results that agree with their worldview.
Cite this article: Jake Hebert, Ph. Deep Core Dating and Circular Reasoning. Skip to main content. Deep Ice and Sediment Cores To study past climates, scientists drill and extract cylindrical rods of ice, known as ice cores, from the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets.
The Milankovitch Ice Age Hypothesis Secular scientists use the Milankovitch or astronomical ice age hypothesis to assign ages to seafloor sediments. Chemical Clues in the Sediments Many of these researchers believe chemical clues within both the seafloor sediments and ice cores tell a story of past climate change.
Example: New Zealand Sediment Core MD This process of tying wiggles in one core to those in other cores can be demonstrated by considering a meter-long core designated as MD that was retrieved off the eastern coast of New Zealand.
Dating of the Third Section To obtain dates for the third section, researchers tuned chemical wiggles in the New Zealand core to wiggles in a sediment core extracted off the coast of Portugal point D. Dating of the Fourth Section In order to date the fourth core section, chemical wiggles within the New Zealand core thought to indicate past sea-surface temperatures were tuned to chemical wiggles in the Vostok ice core from Antarctica point G.
Clever Reasoning References Lubenow, M. The pigs took it all. Hebert, J. Pahnke, K. Posted on ncdc. Space does not permit me to cite every reference since this is a very convoluted process.
However, I have tried to list the most important reference papers, and, for the interested reader, more documentation is provided in my technical article. See Hebert, J. Creation Research Society Quarterly. Stuiver, M. Voelker, A. Shackleton, N. Hall, and E. Phase relationships between millennial-scale events 64, years ago.
Answers Research Journal.
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Aug 16, Scientists smashed the previous record for the oldest ice core in the world, collecting an ice core that dates back million years keitaiplus.com is compared to one of the oldest ice cores which. Core Dating: Browse Core, WV Singles & Personals. Mountain State of West Virginia. With millions of singles and all the dating advice and technology you need to find your match, keitaiplus.com is just the West Virginia matchmaker you've been searching for. You do the choosing - so many ways to search and connect in Core,West Virginia.
A new species of a split-footed lacewing was recently unearthed in British Columbia, Canada, creating a bit of controversy among secular paleontologists. Conservationists are satellite tracking red pandas in The life of a Maine lobster is mostly a matter of crawling around on muddy continental shelf seafloors, not far from a coastline. Benthic scavenging is Yes, the number of layers indicates many tens of thousands of years. I spent a year in Greenland Thule and went up onto the cap a few times.
While there I had the opportunity to talk to a team of scientists who were loading supplies in order to head back out onto the cap. They were taking ice cores. They said that they were working in an area where the ice was about 9, ft.
Ice Core Dating. By sampling at very fine intervals down the ice core, and provided that each annual layer of snow is thick enough, several samples from each year may be measured for the different chemical properties. It has already been seen that the delta value is related to air temperature when the snow was deposited. Core Dating Simulator (Portugues) Version: about 2 years ago. Download (20 MB) Free. Core Dating Simulator (ENGLISH) Version: about 2 years ago. Download (13 MB) Ja imaginou como e namorar core das antigas? nao? por isso eu fiz esse jogo. Other ways of dating ice cores include geochemisty, wiggle matching of ice core records to insolation time series (Lemieux-Dudon et al. ), layers of volcanic ash (tephra) (Vinther et al., ), electrical conductivity, and using numerical flow models to understand age-depth relationships (Mulvaney et al., ), combined with firn.
I mentioned that I was amazed that the ice went up that far. He said that it didn't but that the weight of the ice actually depressed the land. I have since learned that this is called isostasy. At any rate, he talked about the seasonal layers in the ice.
These layers can be counted only so far down because the weight of the ice compresses the layers more and more the deeper they are in the ice. Still, there are other means to study the composition of the ice that makes it possible to recognize the seasonal layering. I understand that the age of the ice at Camp Century very near to where I was is overy. The ice at Camp Century isn't even half the thickness at the center of the cap.
I saw these layers first hand inside some ice caves in the cap. While I didn't count 4, layers, I could see several hundred. In my view it just isn't reasonable to claim that all of that ice was laid down in just a few years after the flood. Gallo was right when he mentioned that compression would destroy the "rings. That ratio may be good only to indicate the climate at the time of snowfall.
At any rate, the main challenge I am aware of to standard ice core dating has to do with the fact that we really don't know if layers before known time were caused by many different storms in a few years or one season layering a year. We know what we see now, and many extrapolate backwards from that. Russell Humphreys, Ph. It amazes me that you feel freely qualified to propose answers to questions where you aren't. Please explain in more detail about oxygen isotopic record.
None of the authors you mention have had any training in stable isotopes, so there word is as good as yours. What I remember reading about isotopes of oxygen did not come from those articles, but from a discussion over a year ago, I think, with some other people - teachers.
That is why I felt pretty hesitant about it. It's not worth you jumping on, really. What little I remember had to do with the idea that a heavier isotope - 18O - would evaporate more slowly than a lighter one and thus a ratio could establish climatary differences during the time of the snowfalls.
Will last core dating are
If I am wrong in what I remember, just say so. The isotopic composition of both oxygen and hydrogen deposited at the polar regions is primarily a function of temperature.
The oxygen isotopes in ice cores are used to date the cores due to the seasonal variations.
To demonstrate the methods used in dating ice-cores I will use the Vostok ice-core as an example because I found plenty of literature on it and because it is an Antarctic ice-core which was what the original post was about. How It Was Collected The Vostok Ice-Core was collected in East Antarctica by the Russian Antarctic expedition. Crossdating is the most basic principle of dendrochronology. Crossdating is a technique that ensures each individual tree ring is assigned its exact year of formation. This is accomplished by matching patterns of wide and narrow rings between cores from the . The core was divided into four sections, and a summary of the methods used to date the sections is posted online. 7 Below is a description of the way scientists dated these four core sections. 8. Dating of the Top Two Core Sections.
One looks for summer layers for example as a function of depth. From that one can examine such things as precipitation and overall climatic change.
There are complications and Tom Moore is probably better at describing these to you than I am, but basically you are looking at seasonal variations.
It is known that the ice layers represent annual snows down to a certain level. There is nothing that distinguishes the layers below that from the ones above.
So your conclusion is that since it isn't known for sure, it is reasonable to assume that the ice layers are somehow formed differently because your Bible tells you so. At any rate, the story invented to make the mythology of the Bible seem reasonable requires that you claim different causes. There is no evidence that the ice layers going down for several thousand years were formed for any other reasons than those we know to be in effect today.
To assume, without evidence, that any other cause is reasonable, is irrational at best.
Besides, I doubt that you can cramstorms into years. Your whole story is nothing more than imagination. This is what I hear mostly from evolutionists, gallo - especially in regard to transitionals Science does that all the time, right?
It is unscientific when you propose those other explanations without evidence. As far as science is concerned, they are meaningless. In other words, pseudoscience.
Posted by Helen on September 04, at Joe said he would explain to me about oxygen isotopes if I answered him about why I posted something the way I did.
So I responded, and he posted his explanation. Some background here, because I want to continue the questions regarding this subject:. I had also thought that dating was mentioned in regard to this. I mentioned this in a response to someone interested in ice cores further down and Joe promptly jumped on it, telling me I should not post what I did not know about.
So I asked him to explain to me what I said was wrong or what was right. This is his answer:. So, first of all, my memory had served me right and there was no reason to jump on my post regarding that. But that aside, if it is possible for anyone here to walk in my shoes for just a bit, let me ask some questions from a YEC point of view:.
Understanding that it takes FAR more snowfall than present to establish the ice caps, and understanding that it also requires warmer water to evaporate faster if not also a generally warmer climate to hold that evaporated water until air currents reached the poles, isn't it wrong to extrapolate backwards just from what we see today? If it is possible that the world was different then from what we know today, then what would have happened post Flood or at the time of Peleg, when there are good reasons to think the ocean waters somewhat warmer than now, as well as the atmosphere?
If either catastrophe disturbed the climatic patterns of the world very much and one would presume that they woul then many storms of varying intensities AND temperatures would have arrived over the poles in rapid succession.
It seems to me that this would produce the same things we see in the ice cores that are now attributed to a long series of unchanging seasons. Now, guys, I have spent a lot of time working on posts discussing evolutionism seriously in the past, especially in regards to mutations, etc.
Agree or disagree, you have to admit the time on my part! So I am asking for time now from you. Not mocking, not throwing stuff up in the air and laughing about it - but the time to think some of this through. Yes, I will try to find out more as we go and different things are brought up, if they are, but for now, at first, why wouldn't this be an acceptable model to work with theoretically? I have reproduced the article here so that I can respond to it in context. First of all, thank you for the link to it.
Before I begin, I want to mention that the dating and the article are done with the presupposition of both long ages and not only uniformitarianism but gradualism. Understanding that I do not accept these presuppositions and will be looking at the evidence presented from the standpoint of recent creation and catastrophic interruptions in history, I will approach the article from a "devil's advocate" point of view as far as evolutionists are concerned.
The quoted article is in italics. Antarctica is the coldest, windiest, highest and driest continent on Earth. That's right - the driest! Antarctica is a desert. The annual precipitation of snow, averaged across the continent, is about 30 centimetres, which is equivalent to about 10 centimetres of water.
In some locations as little as 2 centimetres water equivalent is recorded. For those confused by metrics, 10cm is a little less than 4 inches. Because of the low temperatures, however, there is little or no melt. Thus the snow has accumulated year after year for thousands of years and, with time, is compressed to ice to form the Antarctic ice sheet.
Approximately 98 per cent of the Antarctic continent is covered by the ice sheet which is on average about 2, metres thick and, at it's deepest location, 4, metres thick. It is due to this thick ice mass that Antarctica is, on average, the highest continent. Since the ice sheet is formed by the accumulation of snow year after year, by drilling from the surface down through the ice sheet, we drill our way back in time.
Ice drills are designed to collect a core as they cut through the ice, so samples are collected that are made up of ice deposited in the form of snow many thousands of years ago. As the snow is deposited on top of the ice sheet each year, it traps different chemicals and impurities which are dissolved in the ice.
The ice and impurities hold information about the Earth's environment and climate at the time of deposition. A variety of different analyses techniques are used to extract that information. One measurement, the oxygen isotope ratio or delta value, measured using a mass spectrometer on melted samples of the ice, gives us an indication of the temperature at the time the ice was deposited as snow.
Measuring the delta value at many depths through the ice core is equivalent to measuring the air temperature at many times in the past. Thus, a climatic history is developed. Climatic temperature against time from delta measurements taken on the ice core drilled at the Russian station, Vostok, in central Antarctica Figure 2.
Available data from this ice core so far extends back aboutyears. However, drilling of the core still continues, and it is expected that, when drilling is completed in a few years time, an age ofyears will have been reached.
This was an ice age period. These short warmer periods are called inter-glacials. We are in an inter-glacial now. Fromto about 20, years ago, there was a long period of cooling temperatures, but with some ups and downs of a degree or two.
From about 18, or 19, years ago to about 15, years ago, the climate went through another warming period to the next inter-glacial, - the one we are now in. What is being seen here is two possible ice ages, the first one being somewhat less and perhaps shorter than the second. Removing the time element, which is gradualistic and uniformitarian, what might just as easily be seen is the ice age that is postulated as arising out of the Flood catastrophe, with a warmer period for several hundred years, and then the massive volcanic activity thought to be present at the time of Peleg, which would have resulted in a much more severe ice age.
During the formation of both ice ages, the storms would have had to be constant, one on top of another with very little time in between, and very fierce.
Sorry, core dating regret, that
This would also account for what is seen in the ice cores. Figure 2 also includes a graph of the concentration of dust in the ice core. High concentrations of dust occur at the same times as the colder periods shown on the temperature graph.
There are several possible reasons for this: the air is drier during colder periods, thus, there may have been more deserts; the ice sheets were more extensive and sea levels lower, thus there would have been more exposed, dry land; there may also have been more storms, or at least more violent storms.
All of these factors would increase the amount of dust lifted into the atmosphere to then be blown over Antarctica and deposited with the snow on the surface of the ice sheet. Colder periods are normally times of less precipitation, as cold air is dry. The writer here is postulating more deserts by presuming a worldwide cold and dry climate. I think he may be presuming too much.
A warmer world in the tropic and temperate zones, particularly where the oceans are concerned a few degrees warmer temperature in the oceans would vastly increase the rate of evaporationwould provide the precipitation for the massive snowfalls required for the laying down of not only the polar caps but for the advent of the ice age s as well.
One thing I noticed here is that the author also mentions more land being exposed during the ice age sand when I mentioned that, I was ridiculed on this forum.
One thing that is not mentioned in this article is the composition of the dust.
Does it show high or low amounts of volcanic material? And at which levels? I would be curious to know this. Figure 2. Dust concentration, climatic air temperature as inferred from del measurementsand concentration of carbon dioxide and methane from measurements of trapped air are plotted against time before present.
Halal Dating? - Hangouts with Shaykh Yasir Birjas
After Lorius et al. The snow near the surface of the ice sheet is like a sponge with channels of air between the snow grains. As more and more snow is accumulated on top, the underlying snow is compressed into ice and the air forms bubbles in the ice. Ice cores therefore can be analysed not just for the chemical and physical properties of the ice, but also for the properties of the air trapped in the ice.
Amusing core dating scandal!
These bubbles are actual samples of the atmosphere up to thousands of years ago. So, analysis of them can tell us much about the atmosphere in the past. Concentrations of carbon dioxide and methane measured in the air bubbles trapped in the ice are shown in Figure 2 along with temperature and dust graphs. Carbon dioxide and methane are greenhouse gases and the similarity between the graphs for their concentrations and the temperature change graph indicates that the greenhouse effect is real and that it has been around for many thousands of years.